Gavin Ortlund is a Protestant Christian who recently made a video titled, “Before You Become Eastern Orthodox…” so I have titled my own response, “Before You Listen to Gavin Ortlund About Orthodoxy.” I seek to charitably answer Gavin’s critiques as he bases his video off of my patron saint, St.
There is a lot of projection going on: Protestants tend to view things in logical and binary ways, and they often attribute that type of thinking to the Orthodox. Likewise, it is far more common in Protestantism to take a view on other people's salvation: "Muslims are not saved." Or "Catholics are not saved." As you laid out in great detail here, that entire mode of thinking is foreign to Orthodoxy: God is the judge, not us. His mercy and his economy are for Him to decide, not us. I never hear Orthodox taking a position on anyone's salvation, Orthodox or not, Christian or not, etc.
The importance of the Orthodox phronema, or way of thinking, cannot be emphasized enough. Debates and arguments are, for that reason, fraught with problems and are usually fruitless. Orthodoxy is not about "winning an argument". If Ortlund cannot understand the Orthodox phronema, he will engage in fruitless debate. And if he does understand the phronema ..., well, then he is likely to ultimately end up Orthodox...
I think that just getting people to understand that Orthodox thought is a mode outside of the computerized “if you think X then that must consequently mean Y” sort of western rationalistic thinking, is a very positive first step.
It’s not so much that Eastern thinking is some fuzzy mystical, ethereal mode of thought, as “Eastern” connotes in the contemporary Western world. It’s that (at least in Orthodoxy), it’s based on relationships rather than logical syllogisms. And relationships don’t really translate all that well to an integer or Boolean value.
Most Protestant critiques of Orthodoxy are simply the result of them not understanding what it is that we actually believe. I hope this is the case with Ortlund, however, given the extent of his knowledge and research, it comes across as dishonest. The good news is, many people can see through it and are finding their way to the Church. It would be amazing if Gavin and his followers do the same.
I love how Saint Isaak the Syrian always counsels our attending to our own hearts, witnessing with our compassion rather than with our apologia: “Someone who has actually tasted the truth is not contentious for truth. Someone who is considered among men to be zealous for truth has not yet learned what truth is really like; once he has learned it, he will cease from zealousness on its behalf.” The beloved Saint Theophan would offer similar counsel. Good journey.
Very good post. Saying the Orthodox believe all non-Orthodox go to Hell is wild. Quoting St. Theophan to that effect shows that Ortlund did no research beyond reading this one letter. Disappointing. I thought he was better than that.
"He cites Mark chapter nine as evidence that anyone can proclaim Christ while ignoring other biblical passages in Holy Scripture that speak of the exact thing St. Theophan illustrates."
So naive of him to think the Gospels would matter before Acts and Hebrew — or anything else, after Christ had left Earth, and earth would grow in importance.
This certainly clarified this position in full, and I certainly think Ortlund does construct something of a caricature on his videos on most things. However, I have seen/heard some (I suppose) "radical" orthodox, or "rigorists", who will simply say that outside the church there is no salvation whatsoever, today and historically. Is this simply a minority opinion?
I appreciate your charity, this is a very fair and balanced response. I think Dr. Ortlund's contention, if I understand him, is that while St. Theophan may be using the same language as someone like St. Maximus, the meaning of their words has drifted in the Orthodox tradition, and therefore to interpret the former through the latter can be misleading. Correct or not, that is Dr. Ortlund's case as I understand it.
I see some comments pointing out that Protestants desire to reduce salvation to a formula, and I will admit this is often unfortunately the case. I see it as an extension of our more Western way of thinking which, while it has its strengths, also presents weaknesses from which the East is often free. Your words are truly edifying and a blessing, and may God likewise bless you.
The protestant trying to always figure out the exact formula for salvation is tiresome.
There is a lot of projection going on: Protestants tend to view things in logical and binary ways, and they often attribute that type of thinking to the Orthodox. Likewise, it is far more common in Protestantism to take a view on other people's salvation: "Muslims are not saved." Or "Catholics are not saved." As you laid out in great detail here, that entire mode of thinking is foreign to Orthodoxy: God is the judge, not us. His mercy and his economy are for Him to decide, not us. I never hear Orthodox taking a position on anyone's salvation, Orthodox or not, Christian or not, etc.
The importance of the Orthodox phronema, or way of thinking, cannot be emphasized enough. Debates and arguments are, for that reason, fraught with problems and are usually fruitless. Orthodoxy is not about "winning an argument". If Ortlund cannot understand the Orthodox phronema, he will engage in fruitless debate. And if he does understand the phronema ..., well, then he is likely to ultimately end up Orthodox...
I think that just getting people to understand that Orthodox thought is a mode outside of the computerized “if you think X then that must consequently mean Y” sort of western rationalistic thinking, is a very positive first step.
It’s not so much that Eastern thinking is some fuzzy mystical, ethereal mode of thought, as “Eastern” connotes in the contemporary Western world. It’s that (at least in Orthodoxy), it’s based on relationships rather than logical syllogisms. And relationships don’t really translate all that well to an integer or Boolean value.
Most Protestant critiques of Orthodoxy are simply the result of them not understanding what it is that we actually believe. I hope this is the case with Ortlund, however, given the extent of his knowledge and research, it comes across as dishonest. The good news is, many people can see through it and are finding their way to the Church. It would be amazing if Gavin and his followers do the same.
Saint Theophan, pray for us! ☦️✍🏼🕯️📿⛪♥️🕊️🔥
🙏☦️
Excellent Apologetic.
Holy St Theophan pray to God for us!
Glory to God my friend!
I'm Eastern Catholic, and I love St. Theophan the Recluse. I'm on the last part of his The Path to Salvation book and I can't get enough of it.
Thank you for this! I watched that video yesterday.
I hope it truly helps people, glory to God for all things 🙏
I love how Saint Isaak the Syrian always counsels our attending to our own hearts, witnessing with our compassion rather than with our apologia: “Someone who has actually tasted the truth is not contentious for truth. Someone who is considered among men to be zealous for truth has not yet learned what truth is really like; once he has learned it, he will cease from zealousness on its behalf.” The beloved Saint Theophan would offer similar counsel. Good journey.
If the Truth turns out to be something other than Reformed Theology, is Gavin Ortlund even interested in hearing it?
Very good post. Saying the Orthodox believe all non-Orthodox go to Hell is wild. Quoting St. Theophan to that effect shows that Ortlund did no research beyond reading this one letter. Disappointing. I thought he was better than that.
"He cites Mark chapter nine as evidence that anyone can proclaim Christ while ignoring other biblical passages in Holy Scripture that speak of the exact thing St. Theophan illustrates."
So naive of him to think the Gospels would matter before Acts and Hebrew — or anything else, after Christ had left Earth, and earth would grow in importance.
Do you have a specific argument or are you just wanting to showcase passive aggressiveness?
This certainly clarified this position in full, and I certainly think Ortlund does construct something of a caricature on his videos on most things. However, I have seen/heard some (I suppose) "radical" orthodox, or "rigorists", who will simply say that outside the church there is no salvation whatsoever, today and historically. Is this simply a minority opinion?
I appreciate your charity, this is a very fair and balanced response. I think Dr. Ortlund's contention, if I understand him, is that while St. Theophan may be using the same language as someone like St. Maximus, the meaning of their words has drifted in the Orthodox tradition, and therefore to interpret the former through the latter can be misleading. Correct or not, that is Dr. Ortlund's case as I understand it.
I see some comments pointing out that Protestants desire to reduce salvation to a formula, and I will admit this is often unfortunately the case. I see it as an extension of our more Western way of thinking which, while it has its strengths, also presents weaknesses from which the East is often free. Your words are truly edifying and a blessing, and may God likewise bless you.